Cameras

[ns0588]

Im going to be trekking to EBC in August next year and would like some advice on what camera to take with me.

Currently I have a 4 megapixel digital camera (one of those credit card shaped ones), but have been told that this will not function properly in cold weather, and that i won't get good images out of it.

So, I want to get a new one but have no clue what types of camera to even consider.

I am interested in one that will do the job at 5,500m, isn't too big and bulky and priced relatively cheaply-altho i don't really know what 'relatively cheap' is, as I have nothing to compare to...

As you may have guessed, im no camera buff!

Anyway, thanks for any advice

[katwmn06]

greetings!, i'm glad you started this thread.....because photography has been on my mind for my trip to EBC in april.....i just recieved a digtal camera for my birthday...it is a 8 mp 5times zoom olympus....the camera takes good photos of people but i haven't tried landscape pics yet.....after viewing some of the other trekkers photos, i don't think my camera will surfice.....their pics look professional, and i'm guessing they used high end pro cameras....i'm going to invest some money into another camera because i will not settle for crappy pics! anyone out there have any suggestions? kat

[yakshaver]

greetings!, i'm glad you started this thread.....because photography has been on my mind for my trip to EBC in april.....i just recieved a digtal camera for my birthday...it is a 8 mp 5times zoom olympus....the camera takes good photos of people but i haven't tried landscape pics yet.....after viewing some of the other trekkers photos, i don't think my camera will surfice.....their pics look professional, and i'm guessing they used high end pro cameras....i'm going to invest some money into another camera because i will not settle for crappy pics! anyone out there have any suggestions? kat

Yes, people like Escher, Oli, the undersigned etc. have SLR Nikons or Canons etc with various zoom stuff

I don't know where you're located, but in Australia you can pick a pretty good Nikon or Canon SLR digital (7-10 megapixels, usually two lenses) for anywhere between 1000-2000 AUD, depending on what you want. This would be more than adequate in getting good quality pics, but they are not a guarantee... Knowing how to use is also... useful, in order to get oustanding pics. But even just using one simple zoom lense (28-200 say) putting the camera on automatic, will give you better pics in most cases than the small, non-SLR cameras.

Regarding cameras and altitude, the issue is usually the batteries, which tend to loose their power much quicker in cold conditions. Looking after your spare batteris in cold conditions the key. I keep them in my breast pocket and sleep with them in my sleeping bag at night. Kinky stuff!! And it works. If you're careful with the lithium ion batteries on these cameras you should be ok. I always have two sets. So I buy an extra set of batteries when I purchase the camera. If I run out of power in the middle of the day, before I get to some lodge in order to recharge, I put the charged battery in the camera and continue.

[Escher]

Cameras - a difficult subject!

To the OP. Your best bet is to pick up a review magazine such as "What Digital Camera" or it's equivalent in your country and look at the reviews for mid range cameras. Pretty much any of the main manufacturers will have a camera that suits your needs. A resolution of around 6-8 megapixels, replaceable battery (so that you can have two at least and keep one warm in a pocket next to your skin for those cold days up high) and decent image quality will be easy to pick up in models by Olympus, Canon, Ricoh, Kodak, Fuji etc etc. Fuji come out well in reviews at the moment as their cameras have good low light capabilities. Canon is my preferred brand though.

About compact cameras versus "pro" cameras.

With compact digital cameras you get a lot for your money these days, most of the brands make good quality cameras that will take decent, if not very good indeed photos. Olympus make fine compact cameras capable of taking excellent photos. Photography is as much about the luck, judgement and skill of the photographer as it is about the camera taking the photographs. Give any old camera to a pro photographer and they will likely produce good photos, that will appear to the untrained eye indistinguishable from ones taken on a very expensive 'pro'camera.

More expensive, complicated cameras can give you much better results but being more complex it is much easier to mess up and get crappy results. Modern compact cameras will be more forgiving and give more consistent results but perhaps will not allow you the full creative control that an SLR will, but you have to know how to use one.

That said. modern digital SLR's are exceptionally good for the price and you get a lot for your money. Something like a Canon 350D/400D, Nikon D40x or Pentax K10D can be picked up for around the price of a top end compact.

Pros and cons:-

Cons SLR

Heavier
Bulkier
More expensive
Can lead you down the path of second mortgages
More Complex
Can mess up if you don't know what you are doing (that said these cameras are still very good on automatic but if you only shoot on auto you might as well use a compact!)
Too many features for some people, too much faff for some
Obtrusive (obvious to people if you are taking candid portraits with a big SLR stuck to your face)
Will it always be stuck in your pack when you want to take that picture?

Pros

Image quality
Creative abilities (low light, night shots, depth of field etc)
Can definitely grow into an SLR as you learn to use it
Versatility
Can upgrade quality of lenses

Cons Compact camera

Not as much flexibility
It is debateable whether better image quality is only possible through an SLR (a high end compact will match a low end SLR - depends what you are comparing)
Can't upgrade the lens

Pros
Light
Small
Always handy
Less expensive
Better for "point and shoot" photographers
More forgiving

IMO if you believe that you will get a lot of use out of an SLR, learn how to use its features, are prepared to lug around the extra weight and bulk then you will have a lot of fun with it and take a lot of good pictures in Nepal. However if you are more inclined to "point and shoot" and want to take something light and handy then any midrange to top end compact camera will produce excellent images in the majority of cases. Olympus cameras have a fine reputation. Perhaps some time spent practicing with yours will pay dividends.

FWIW I carry a ridiculous amount of camera gear with me. I obsess at my pack weight and try to carry around 8kgs trekking but my camera kit weighs 4.5kgs on top of that.

Until I recently upgraded I had a Canon 350D SLR for a few years and I was very happy with it. It is small and lightweight for a DSLR and they can be had for £350 in the UK at the moment and less in the States. The equivalent Nikon is also a fine camera.

[Per]

We used to carry several kilos of SLRs, but nowadays we have a Cannon that fits in the pocket. The SLR takes better photos, but the difference is marginal, only professionals take notice. The advantage of the pocket camera is that it takes almost as good photos as an SLR while it weighs next to nothing compared to an SLR. You can have it along in all situations and it does not feel like a burden, in fact you don´t notice you are carrying it. Good ones have impressive zoom and mikro capacities. Just make sure to carry spare batteries.

[Suginami]

I just bought some lovely picture books in Thamel. Much better pictures than I can take. But I do carry a small Olympus digital which takes fab pictures. It says IR 300 on it.

[Spaceman347]

Don't under-estimate the extra weight and size of a full size SLR. Having recently upgraded to one myself the extra weight and sheer bulk of the thing is quite a limitation. That and the fact that they can get very expensive if you have expensive taste in lens etc. That comes with the extra worry and hassle of having $5k worth of equipment in your backpack or hanging around your neck which is not always desirable.

Until I recently upgraded.....
To a new 40d according to your EXIF data, Christmas came early this year :) Welcome to the club, I'm still sitting on my probationary membership and better figure out how to use mine properly otherwise Canon are threatening to take it off me (something about giving their product a bad name by using it poorly).

[Escher]

To a new 40d according to your EXIF data, Christmas came early this year :) Welcome to the club, I'm still sitting on my probationary membership and better figure out how to use mine properly otherwise Canon are threatening to take it off me (something about giving their product a bad name by using it poorly).

Ha ha, didn't think that would get past you! I've only had it a couple of days and I think it is absolutely superb. I love the ergonomics and find the combination of the controls perfect. The live view for macro work is a boon, the joystick for selecting the focus point is very useful, and the fast fps is very impressive. It has been quite dark here the last few days so I have been shooting in high ISO (1600) and I am very impressed with the noise levels especially when processed with Lightroom. I think the location of everything is very intuitive and it is just the right time to move onto it from the 350D. It is a beast alright and weighs a bit but I am really looking forward to using it in Nepal. As you can tell I am very happy with it!

[Per]

Don't under-estimate the extra weight and size of a full size SLR.

Yes, that is the problem. When one still used film we used to have two Nikon camera houses and five Nikkor lenses along. After some years we only used one camera and one lense, the one we liked most. Now, we have a really small versatile digital camera that takes brilliant pictures. Sometimes I even use the phone´s camera.

Of course ultimately a SLR takes better photos, but having an eye for a good shot and good logistics is really far more important than the gear as long as one is above a certain minimum level.

To put it differently, some of the best shots I have seen from Nepal was taken by a guy who travelled with a simple 35 mm Olympus. He had excellent composition and pulled the shutter at the right moment and was not afraid of getting close to people with his camera. On the other hand I have seen people with enormous 3000 USD lenses that fail to take any interesting photos although they flaunted their gear all over the place for every one to watch.

[peteris]

There is much for subjective taste. SLR will give you a much more pleasure if you are ready to take this seriously. There isn't much to speak about cameras in mountains except extra batteries, keeping batteries (and maybe also memory cards) in sleeping bag and maybe UV filter. Regarding the rest, it is choice for landscape and also some tele photography when you need to go with all on your shoulder. So it's choice for yourself, how serious you will take this. I had two compact cameras (Sony H1 in Annapurna Circuit) and for me its have quite big limitations.
Regarding speed SLR is much much faster to turn in, to focus, to shoot, to turn out. SLR is much better in low light, SLR have better image quality, better colours (and you can much better possibility to adjust white balance), better exposure metering etc. SLR is much easier to operate (for me :) - and this means better results! For inside SLR's have much better flash.
Photography is about aperture, shutter speed, white balance, exposure compensation, focus mode, sensor sensitivity etc., no matter SLR or compact camera. Different "sports/portrait/beach" etc. modes is all about this. You cannot hope that with auto settings you will have always good results, but from other side lower segment SLR's also have full auto settings and then it is like compact camera but with better image quality and bigger weight. Its my answer for "more complex". Compact camera have bigger depth of field (good or bad - no one answer).
Escher is right about skills of the photographer.

[Spoons]

Olympus makes a pocket size digital camera. Olympus SW 770, 720, or 790. They are shock proof, crush proof, water proof, and most important for this discussion, freeze proof. States that is functional down to 14F according to the manufacturer..

[Huw]

For the Gokyo trek last year I bought a Canon S3 12xzoom - it gave quite good results including a couple of nice 'candid' shots in Kathmandu using the zoom at max - but I decided I could get better shots with an SLR. So in Spring I sold the S3 and bought a Pentax K100D, mainly because I could use the lenses from my old ME Super. This summer I lugged it around the Mont Blanc Circuit for three days before leaving it in my kit bag and using my wife's little Fuji F10 for the rest of the trek. The difference in quality is marginal and I didn't have the millstone round my neck. I rounded a trail one day and came face to face with a Chamois and took a great shot with the F10 before it disappeared up the hill - I'd have still been fighting to get the SLR out of the bag..... It's back to a digital compact for my next trek, anyone want to buy a Pentax K100D? :)
Huw
-
http://www.trekdiaries.co.uk/

[sosokizza]

Very Interesting thread!

I will be on the Gokyo trek in January. I am purchasing a Canon Eos 400D or Nikon d40x for this trek. They are both lower-end digital SLR cameras; but do the job for beginners looking for a transition into SLR photography.

My question: what effects are there on digital SLR cameras in sub zero temperatures? I have read up on various official and unofficial websites, and all seem to say that the "recommended" operating temperature is 0 to 40 degrees. But, many have used their cameras beyond those temperatures. Winter time in Gokyo will definately be below 0 degrees. It appears that the major damage is on batteries (but damage is reversible once you reach normal temperatures). What other damage is possible to the camera?

I'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment. I want to take nice photographs when I'm up there; but also don't want to spend AUD$1300 on a camera that will be damaged within one trip.

I know there are a lot of knowledgeable and experienced trekkers/photographers here; any advice or what were your experiences with digital SLRs in cold/freezing temperatures?

Thanks in advance kindly!

[Spaceman347]

I was about to reply and say that I've never heard of any problems until I read a dispatch this morning from a current Antarctic expedition and they said that their camera viewfinder cracked. It may well be that it was cold (probably very cold, it was Antarctica) and had a sharp bump or something. Having said that it's the first time I've heard of any problems.

[a1jbg]

I have only just changed from 35mm to digital and have bought a Panasonic DMC-TZ2, which I am very pleased with. It has 7mb, 10x optical zoom, image stabilisation and a video function for taking short films.
The best thing I have found about digital photography is that if I download the images onto Picasa2, I can easily tweak "run of the mill" photos into something pretty spectacular. Anyone who has not tried it I would advise to give it a try, because if I can do it, anyone can! The download is free.

[yakshaver]

I have only just changed from 35mm to digital and have bought a Panasonic DMC-TZ2, which I am very pleased with. It has 7mb, 10x optical zoom, image stabilisation and a video function for taking short films.
The best thing I have found about digital photography is that if I download the images onto Picasa2, I can easily tweak "run of the mill" photos into something pretty spectacular. Anyone who has not tried it I would advise to give it a try, because if I can do it, anyone can! The download is free.

What`s Picasa2? Where does she live? Website anything?

[yakshaver]

Very Interesting thread!

I will be on the Gokyo trek in January. I am purchasing a Canon Eos 400D or Nikon d40x for this trek. They are both lower-end digital SLR cameras; but do the job for beginners looking for a transition into SLR photography.
Thanks in advance kindly!

Get the Nikon. Never had problems with cameras even at minus 20 degrees celsius. But I take care of my batteries, sleeping with them in my sleeping bag at night, and carrying the spare batery in my breastpocket during the cold days.

Secondly, when exactly will you be on the Gokyo trek in Jan? We might bump into eachother, and I want to know who to abuse...

[yakshaver]

For the Gokyo trek last year I bought a Canon S3 12xzoom - it gave quite good results including a couple of nice 'candid' shots in Kathmandu using the zoom at max - but I decided I could get better shots with an SLR. So in Spring I sold the S3 and bought a Pentax K100D, mainly because I could use the lenses from my old ME Super. This summer I lugged it around the Mont Blanc Circuit for three days before leaving it in my kit bag and using my wife's little Fuji F10 for the rest of the trek. The difference in quality is marginal and I didn't have the millstone round my neck. I rounded a trail one day and came face to face with a Chamois and took a great shot with the F10 before it disappeared up the hill - I'd have still been fighting to get the SLR out of the bag..... It's back to a digital compact for my next trek, anyone want to buy a Pentax K100D? :)
Huw
-
http://www.trekdiaries.co.uk/

Huw,

Nice to see you around here!!

[Escher]

Picasa is a free bit of software given out by Google for managing and editing photos.

Never had a problem with my Canon 350D in cold weather up to 6000m.

[peteris]

My question: what effects are there on digital SLR cameras in sub zero temperatures? I have read up on various official and unofficial websites, and all seem to say that the "recommended" operating temperature is 0 to 40 degrees. But, many have used their cameras beyond those temperatures.

One man around Machhapuchhre BC told me that he have damaged Memory Stick, he presumed that it's from cold. I don't know.
Avoid big contrasts for temperature, camera need to get accustomed to contrasting temperature slowly, it's better to keep camera in bag for some time if you go from cold to warm or vice versa. SLRs are bigger and it takes longer time to warm and for condensate to disappear from lens if it is there.
It's better to keep batteries in some inner pocket when you are outside in cold.

they said that their camera viewfinder cracked..
I suppose that it isn't from cold.

[a1jbg]

Yes, as Escher says, Picasa is free photo editing software provided by Google. Just type picasa on the Google search engine and you will be able to download it in a couple of minutes.
I have found that a few seconds "tweaking" an image, can turn a mediocre photo into a great one.

[peteris]

Escher and other photographers – how you manage to store big amount of files? Is there some portable HDD which is possible to connect directly to camera (or card reader:) ) or you go with many memory cards (CF's in my case)? I would like to shoot mostly raw.
Peteris

[Oli]

I'd recommend just getting a load of flash media cards. They are light, reliable and relatively cheap. You can get devices to offload but then you'd have to worry about it breaking and loosing all your archive. How many RAW images can you fit onto 2Gb?

[peteris]

I'd recommend just getting a load of flash media cards. They are light, reliable and relatively cheap. You can get devices to offload but then you'd have to worry about it breaking and loosing all your archive. How many RAW images can you fit onto 2Gb?

Thanks, Oli,
Aprox. 80-100 images onto 2GB. If you start exposure bracketing (hdr) or pano shots or 5 shots per sec., it would take quite a lot of space.

[dougk]

my last trip i shot RAW. in 5 weeks i used 36gb worth of sdhc cards, i carried 8 gb and 4gb cards with me - i was also deleting the stuff i didn't like each night, directly off the camera. i kept the cards on my person at all times.

RAW card writing times can be slow, so for capture/candid stuff it can be a handicap. for landscapes and stuff that takes time to compose, it's great, because you can judge what you just shot while the card is writing. i thought shooting RAW was definitely worth it.

the real challenge is batteries. i carry 4, it sucks up more battery life to shoot RAW. charging in the upper khumbu is 400-450 rupees/hour, so be prepared to pay, or figure out some way around this.

[peteris]

Thanks, dougk! Sorry for late reply, was away from I-net. I know writing speed of raw files, normally it's not a problem for me. But I'm not sure about massive deleting because 1) I like to judge at home and it's not always clear from camera LCD, 2) deleting takes batteries (I have 3).

[dougk]

good points. deleting is a luxury i allow myself and part of the process, to part ways with everything but what you really love. i find it makes me take better photos, like cutting off the dead leaves of a tree...

maybe just bring more cards - they can get expensive, but some things don't have a price tag, right?

[yakshaver]

The issue of storing, for processing when you have time, is not easy...
I have an 4 and an 8 gb cards for my Nikon.
I have two batteries but you guys make me think I may need at least one more.
The D300 is certainly more power hungry than the old D50, and I never yet travelled to Nepal with it, to us it in the cold.

Just got a 500 Gb external for backing up all my pics and important docs. It was the biggest I could get - that just plugs into a computer via USB, and does not need additional power. The 1 Tb ext drive needed to be plugged into the wall.

[peteris]

Just got a 500 Gb external for backing up all my pics and important docs. It was the biggest I could get - that just plugs into a computer via USB, and does not need additional power. The 1 Tb ext drive needed to be plugged into the wall.

I have external with e-sata port - although it need second USB-DC cable from computer for power, it's much faster than USB.

[mtncanyon]

Namaste. I have one of the simple 4 megapixel point and shoot cameras and did not have any problems with it. I dont think they are any more likely to have problems than the slr cameras. You will get better picture quality with an slr obviously. With 4 megapixels you can enlarge up to 8x10 with good results.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3037301809/sizes/l/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3038143508/sizes/l/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3038090192/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3038095172/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3190945690/sizes/l/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3060743422/in/set-72157609271568849/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3038135880/sizes/l/in/set-72157609271568849/
the video quality was ok too
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8482199@N07/3079365016/in/set-72157609271568849/
Batteries can cost over 300 rupees for one hour to charge so bring plenty. I would make the type of battery and its capacity aon important part in deciding which camera to bring. Have fun

[Oli]

Is there some portable HDD which is possible to connect directly to camera (or card reader:) ) or you go with many memory cards (CF's in my case)?

Perhaps something like this (http://www.card-media.co.uk/digimagic+dm180.htm) 20-60Gb storage & multi card reader. I've not used anything like that so not got any expert tips.

[Lars]

Perhaps something like this (http://www.card-media.co.uk/digimagic+dm180.htm) 20-60Gb storage & multi card reader. I've not used anything like that so not got any expert tips.
I doubt that model will be a hit.

First of all at £185 for 20 GB it is much too expensive. But my real, and
lasting, doubts come from it using a 1.8" hard drive. Hitachi, and I believe
others too, have quite recently ceased production of the 1.8" drives.
They are too slow and too prone to mechanical problems.

I have a Thinkpad x41 a 1.8" drive. Bought it used for my bike trip this last
winter. It is a nice ultra portable but the HD is really slow. Since I bought this
machine I have been following discussions on it over at Thinkpads.com. The
most persistent criticism concerns the HD. How hard it is to find, how
expensive it is etc.

The Digimagic looks nice enough but I think it would have a brighter future
were it fitted with a CF card instead of the poor, and relatively power
hungry HD.

[peteris]

Thanks, mtncanyon, for advice! I don't think that point and shoot camera have more problems as slr if used carefully, although P&S is more prone to problems in harder environment. I had a job near photo service for several years and have good friends here, so I'm well informed about point and shoot problems :) At moment I'm too deep in dslr to think about only P&S for trek. But yes, I will bring few spare batteries.

Namaste. I have one of the simple 4 megapixel point and shoot cameras and did not have any problems with it. I dont think they are any more likely to have problems than the slr cameras. You will get better picture quality with an slr obviously. With 4 megapixels you can enlarge up to 8x10 with good results.
Batteries can cost over 300 rupees for one hour to charge so bring plenty. I would make the type of battery and its capacity aon important part in deciding which camera to bring. Have fun

[peteris]

Thanks, Oli, this was something I thought for (was too lazy to find myself). As idea such portable HD is nice.
And thanks, Lars, for your comments. Yes, Digimagic specification shows clearly that it's quite slow. Expensiveness is other aspect, and unreliability is the last you want. So at moment I think about few bigger capacity CFs.


Perhaps something like this 20-60Gb storage & multi card reader.
I doubt that model will be a hit.
First of all at £185 for 20 GB it is much too expensive. But my real, and
lasting, doubts come from it using a 1.8" hard drive. Hitachi, and I believe
others too, have quite recently ceased production of the 1.8" drives.
They are too slow and too prone to mechanical problems.

[Oli]

Yep, agreed on both the cost & reliability considerations. (hence my original comment last month)

CF media is not the cheapest media, but 30 x 2Gb CF cards are (roughly) the same cost as a 60Gb DigiMagic device. My camera (and many others these days) use (cheap) SD cards, and 20Gb of SD media is a lot cheaper than a DigiMagic.

By way of compromise - if you know you will have access to a computer during your trip (eg at Namche) you could get reasonably large USB memory stick (get solid state flash rather than drive based technology) and use that to free up space on your CF media (less than £15 for 8Gb, or £25 for 16Gb)

[pbekkerh]

i didn´t read through all mails but be aware that most harddisks are only approved to a height of 3000m although they might function, you can´t be sure.
Solid state is the way to go. Maybe an ASUS EEE computer? I bought one for that purpose.

[Oli]

Good point on the use of drives over 3000m - disk based drives do work at altitude, but the increased chance of failure is recognised and excepted from the manufacturers warranty.

Solid state is the way to go. Maybe an ASUS EEE computer?

Oh yes! I have a eeepc900 with 20Gb SSD. I think its a great device, if I need a computer whilst travelling I'd take this.

But for camera/photo storage I still think that a handful of flash cards is the most reliable/cheapest option.

[Lars]

Good point on the use of drives over 3000m - disk based drives do
work at altitude, but the increased chance of failure is recognised ..
I remember reading about that a few years ago, but I forgot the real reason
for the problem.

Is it the air cushion needed for the drives head to fly, or is it the cooling not
working properly in very thin air?

[Oli]

...Is it the air cushion needed for the drives head to fly...?

According to wikipedia its pressure to properly "fly" the head. (here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_drive#Integrity)) But note the relevant paragraph includes a couple of "[citation needed]" riders.

[yakshaver]

I have external with e-sata port - although it need second USB-DC cable from computer for power, it's much faster than USB.

Thanks, I will look at this.

[peteris]

Thanks, I will look at this.

about e-sata, here is comparison wit others (scroll little-bit down) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-sata#External_SATA
USB 3.0 will be very fast.